Even more so, she adds, given that the so-called ‘first world’s’ (and especially Italy’s) imagination remains marked by an image of women, forcefully conveyed by the images of advertising, as prisoners of the oppositions woman-wife-mother and woman-manager-whore.

An interview by Elisabetta Ambrosi.

Let’s begin close to home. In your view, what are the ‘critical issues’ of women in the western world? In particular, from a social perspective, I’m thinking of the consequences caused by the transition to ‘post-fordism’ – lack of job security, insufficient welfare, the inequality of salaries between men and women, and the extremely low female presence in politics and in business.

As far as the so-called ‘western’ world is concerned, it’s important to make distinctions between individual countries, since the social or employment situation of women in a country like Italy is obviously very different to that of a country like Sweden or Finland, or the United States. They are situations between which it’s difficult to make comparisons. Let’s say that in the more ‘advanced’ countries, the emancipation of women in the social sphere has had an effect and produced results which are much more significant, in part because both clear guidelines and practical applications have been put in place; ‘political correctness’ in the United States, for example, has produced clear results even from a purely statistical point of view. Italy, on the other hand, has a Mediterranean culture, with strong Catholic origins. These Catholic roots, which are culturally very powerful, have brought about the insistence on what we could call ‘familyism’ – an idea of the traditional family in which women have a clearly defined role, and in which, within the collective social imagination, they are not symbolically associated with spheres of power or knowledge, but rather with that of the family and home. In fact, the more importance is placed on the traditional family structure, and the more this is valued within a culture, the more women, in the collective imagination, continue to perform this role. This is one reason for the extremely limited progress that has been made in the emancipatory process in Italy.

What are the other reasons?

This lack of results coincides with other factors that have little to do with the Catholic Church, but which concern rather the national political culture, which is characterised by lobbies of professional politicians which, as groups, continue to reproduce themselves. And in this self-reproduction it becomes second nature for them to think of themselves as male subjects (and this is something which is not unique to the Italian tradition). But more than this, these mechanisms ensure that there is very little mobility and real opportunity for change of personnel within the present political ranks, with individuals tending to preserve their position and status – we can see this if we look at the age of those in the most important political roles. They are, in fact, professional politicians in the Weberian sense of the word – their job is in politics and they therefore tend to preserve it, just as I try to keep my job. As I said, this is not a unique phenomenon, but is much more evident in Italy, whereas it is not necessarily so in other Catholic countries such as Ireland, where changes in the fields of knowledge and power make space for young people. In essence, in Italy we have a combination of Catholic tradition and the culture of self-preservation within political ranks – two traps which snap shut.

What do you think of the theory of the ‘pink quotas’, positive discrimination in favour of women?

I consider them to be merely an instrument, and more than anything a temporary one. These quotas don’t form part of any political truth, or of any great revolution in the name of freedom. They are instruments to permit the self-correction of the principle of equality which is not working. The principle of equality is written into the Italian constitution, but, despite it having been formally articulated, in practice it doesn’t work. And I believe that if there is a constitutional principle which does not work, this political class, which is ninety percent male, ought to commit itself and finally make an effort to put it into practice.

You have mentioned how the Catholic model which emphasises the importance of the family has had a negative effect upon female emancipation. Do you believe there exists an essential structural tension between women and religion, in particular women and Islam?

I would like to make it clear first of all that I am not an expert on Islam. My impression, however, is that the fiercely repressive system which exists in certain Islamic countries depends, more than on religion, on tribal traditions. It is tribal customs, indeed, which are at the heart of this, and which then interpret religion in a way which represses women.

In your opinion, what should Islamic women take from western feminism?

In my opinion, they should take almost nothing at all. Let me explain. A subject which acts politically does so in a specific environment, in a defined context, and in my view there are already signs here and there, for example in Iran, which point the political way towards liberation and towards a certain recognition of the value of the female subject. With respect to this activity which is stirring, western women must give all their solidarity, and make an attempt to understand, but certainly shouldn’t begin to play the role of teacher, preaching “If you want to be free, be like the West”. I mean, the French Revolution broke out in France in the eighteenth century, and, beyond globalisation, I don’t think that we can take the fruit of a very specific historical experience and apply it across the globe.

Even less, then, should the model of the woman as presented by the media be adopted.

In reality there are many different types of media and every country is different. I will say, however, that the media – and I am speaking above all about advertising, which has a massive influence – propagates the image, on the one hand, of a female figure which is very family orientated, and obsessed by cleaning (this in fact is true in almost all Western countries, between which I earlier made a distinction). On the other, this figure is flanked by the contrasting image of the female manager, who is depicted as ferocious, with fiercely ambitious traits usually associated with men, but with the added elements which are literally vampire-like. In this way they use these two contrasting images, and one plays into the other. I would like to add, though, that the obscene use of the female body in sexually provocative poses (the sole body as object of male desire), that which we see both in advertisements and, above all, in our ‘cultural and political’ weekly newspapers, is a particularly Italian phenomenon. You won’t find such magazine covers in the United States, or, rather, you will find women posing in obscene positions in pornographic magazines and newspapers, but within a specialised press, therefore within a context – whereas in Italy they are decontextualised This goes hand in hand with the predominance of the Catholic culture of the family, in the sense that the obsession with correct, selfless female behaviour within the family context makes the transgression of this other stereotype much more appetising, and much more desired. And transgression is the figure of the woman as whore, which is why there exists this schizophrenia between the woman who takes care of you (the mother, the wife) and the other.

You are very familiar with the debate concerning the pros and cons of intervening in defence of violated human rights, and how, if at all, this should be done. What ought to be done, in your view, when women’s rights are trampled on?

The field of rights is a field in which whoever knows the subject can technically intervene. There are many possible ways. In my view, however, the real force behind a change, which will then also be reflected in the system of rights (which historically is resultant of a culture, and not vice versa), comes from acting on a symbolic level. That’s where long term changes are brought about. In other words, the pure politics of rights, mechanically applied, only has a value if it exists within a reconfiguration of the symbolic. Otherwise it doesn’t work.

Translation by Liz Longden