Professor Allievi, how do you view the approach and stances taken by the Mayor of Bologna, Sergio Cofferati, and of Marta Vincenzi, Mayor of Genoa, with regard to the building of mosques?
They are two different situations. In general almost all Italian mayors have acted very badly, and these two are not exceptions. There are some councils, however, in the small or small to medium sized towns like Brescia or Correggio, which have done better. So the problem concerns cities which are the focus of media attention, like Bologna, where external factors which have nothing to do with the demands of the situation per se, which are very simple: Muslims want a place to worship, and whether it is a mosque or a prayer house is irrelevant. Their right to this is guaranteed by the constitution, and this regardless of whether they are Italian or foreigners (Article 8 of the Italian Constitution states that faiths other than Catholicism have the right to organise themselves according to their own guidelines, as long as they do not contravene the Italian judicial system – Ed.) By calling a referendum, Cofferati has committed a very serious mistake. There may be objections raised over the size of the project, over the reliability of the parties concerned, over the choice of location or over the funding of the project, or there may be issues of viability concerning parking – the UK has resolved this problem brilliantly by ensuring that any place of worship, of whatever faith, must be able to guarantee an area reserved for parking. But it is unacceptable to ask for the consensus of a presumed majority in order for the rights of a minority to be exercised freely.
And what do you think of the Marta Vincenzi’s decision to seek clarification from the Minister of the Interior Giuliano Amato for the plans concerning the building of a mosque in Cornigliano?
Shameful, because she is hiding behind the Minister in order to avoid having to make a decision – at least Cofferati accepted the responsibility of his position. Behind a request which would in no way present a burden for the Council, which would not disrupt the neighbourhood in any way, Vincenzi is trying to buy time. If it is an issue of security, then Vincenzi, justly and legitimately, ought to have contacted the local intelligence services in order to obtain all the relative information about the imam and those attending the Islamic Centre in Genoa – which, besides, has existed for years, and whose leaders are well-known, at least in Liguria, and participate regularly in inter-faith dialogue. If she had done this, Vincenzi would have found out that these people are harmless. Even the fact of wanting to wait for the study commissioned by the EU into the mapping out of European mosques which will be published on the 15th October does not resolve the problem. Whatever the conclusions of the study, what will it tell us? Whether the UCOII (The Union of Islamic Communities and Organizations in Italy – Ed.) is okay or not?
Do you think the UCOII can be trusted?
There has been a very strong media campaign against it led by certain journalists and certain publications. Magdi Allam, Il Corriere della Sera, il Foglio, to name but a few have come up with the following logic: the UCOII equals the Muslim Brothers, the Muslim Brothers equals terrorism, ergo the UCOII equals terrorism. There is not a single chain of reason in this ‘logic’ which is legitimate. It is very true that there are many leaders of the UCOII who have links with the Muslim Brothers, but many of the newer members, equally, do not. I maintain that the UCOII remains a legitimate party in discussions until the day when someone can offer proof that it finances terrorism or that its leaders go around carrying arms and organising attacks. Up until now there has been nothing but unsubstantiated claims, and there has been not a hint of real investigation into these.
What would you reply to those who maintain that mosques are breeding grounds for terrorism?
Let’s begin with the presupposition that I am in favour of surveillance within the Muslim community. It’s worth stressing again that there is no lack of information because our intelligence services – the DIGOS, which uses Arab-speaking agents – and the Carabinieri, do an excellent job of fighting political and religious terrorism. In some mosques there will certainly have been some encouragement of terrorist activity, but in the overwhelming majority the imams themselves carry out checks on their own community, transmitting, amongst others, messages which encourage peaceful and moral behaviour. The hotheads are an annoyance to, if not all, then at least the majority of imams. There are of course some of these who are fanatical, and who must absolutely be kept under close surveillance.
Those who are opposed to the building of new mosques in Italy maintain that there is no need because the percentage of practising Muslims has, in reality, for several years remained fixed at somewhere between 4 and 5%.
No one has ever seriously counted the number of practising Muslims, the calculation of which depends upon a number of factors: going to the Mosque on a Friday is not enough, because for Islam this is not an obligation or a sacrament, but a social practise which is widespread and encouraged. Then we need to take into account the fact that Friday is a working day, and many Muslims cannot take the day off or travel 20km to get to the nearest mosque. The third point is that I am sure the demand far exceeds supply and that, therefore, there are not enough mosques. Wherever a new mosque is raised there is always enough demand to fill it. No one should be surprised that more will open in the future – it’s a physical fact.
Do you think that the fact that certain politicians from the far left are always automatically and necessarily in favour of the building of new mosques can be seen as a desire to prove, at all costs, that they are tolerant, and open to dialogue and integration?
In my view, it is, at times, a way to distinguish themselves with a facile and ill-founded anti-racism. In other nations, too, intervention from the far left has been counterproductive for the Muslim community. In Italy the issue has become a political dispute between the Lega Nord and the Rifondazione Comunista. Often it is a question of people who are anti-clerical and who, on principle, detest religious figures. I’ve noted that this ideological interventionism, which does not reflect in any way on the relationship between religion, secularity and the public sphere, often ends up bouncing back on the immigrants themselves.
In an article published in The Economist, the fact was highlighted that it is easier to build a mosque in the US than in Europe. What’s more, according to a survey carried out by Pew Research, American Muslims feel more integrated that those living in Europe. Do you agree?
As far as the construction of mosques is concerned, this is true, but not for all European countries. In Germany, for example, there are currently dozens being built, and the same is true in Holland and in the UK. It is very true that in the US or in Canada, the construction of a building in the shape of a mosque, with a dome and minaret, causes almost no problem at all, but this is because America is a country which was born out of the initiative of religious communities – the Pilgrim Fathers first of all – and as such doesn’t combat Islam as a religion. I would add that almost half of the 6 million Muslims in the US are black Americans, which is to say citizens who are completely integrated. But this is also true in the UK, where there are 4 members of the House of Lords, including a woman, three MPs, about a hundred local councillors, several mayors, and an MEP who are Muslim – which represents a level of institutionalisation of Muslims which would be unimaginable for a country like Italy. In France, too, the institutionalisation of Muslims is more advanced, even if it is of a different nature to the UK model, because it concerns, above all, the cultural and academic sphere, where Muslim professors and intellectuals are widely recognised. To conclude, Europe does not offer a homogenous image in this respect, but it is certain that in the US freedom of religion is an inalienable right.
Translation by Liz Longden